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kuangningOkay. While I dislike being spammed, -this- was actually funny. < insert standard disclaimer here: not my actual feelings on men, stereotypical blather, yadda yadda. >
Advice From Women To Men
1. The reason why our bras don't always match our underwear is because WE actually change our underwear.
2. The next time you and your buddies joke about armed women in combat, take a poll to see which of you successfully aim at the toilet rim.
3. If we're watching football with you--it's not bonding--it's their butts.
4. Whenever possible, please try to say whatever you have to say after the movie.
5. Lay off the beans several hours before bedtime.
6. Please don't drive when you're not driving.
7. If you were really looking for an honest answer, you wouldn't ask in bed.
8. The next time you joke about female drivers, research the number of accidents caused by rubber-necking mini-skirts.
9. If only women gossip, how do you and your friends keep track of "who's easy"?
10. Stop telling us most male strippers are gay: we don't care.
11. When you're not around, I belch loudly, too.
12. We don't mind if you look in the mirror to check your appearance -- in fact -- please do !!!
13. When you're out with us, please wear "our" favorite outfit rather than "yours" -- the torn jeans and dirty T-Shirt will last longer that way.
14. If you must grunt in reply, please develop a system to indicate a positive vs a negative grunt.
15. Don't insist that we "get off the stupid phone" and then not talk to us.
16. Eye contact is best established above our shoulder-level.
17. Cleaning the house is not necessarily "women's work"; besides, most of the "dirt" and clutter is yours anyway.
18. Yes, we know most of the great chefs are men, why is it then that you never want to cook?
19. We go to the Ladies Room in groups to talk about you.
20. Yes, we know you can probably beat us arm wrestling; however, very few raises or promotions were gained by arm wrestling the boss.
1. The reason why our bras don't always match our underwear is because WE actually change our underwear.
2. The next time you and your buddies joke about armed women in combat, take a poll to see which of you successfully aim at the toilet rim.
3. If we're watching football with you--it's not bonding--it's their butts.
4. Whenever possible, please try to say whatever you have to say after the movie.
5. Lay off the beans several hours before bedtime.
6. Please don't drive when you're not driving.
7. If you were really looking for an honest answer, you wouldn't ask in bed.
8. The next time you joke about female drivers, research the number of accidents caused by rubber-necking mini-skirts.
9. If only women gossip, how do you and your friends keep track of "who's easy"?
10. Stop telling us most male strippers are gay: we don't care.
11. When you're not around, I belch loudly, too.
12. We don't mind if you look in the mirror to check your appearance -- in fact -- please do !!!
13. When you're out with us, please wear "our" favorite outfit rather than "yours" -- the torn jeans and dirty T-Shirt will last longer that way.
14. If you must grunt in reply, please develop a system to indicate a positive vs a negative grunt.
15. Don't insist that we "get off the stupid phone" and then not talk to us.
16. Eye contact is best established above our shoulder-level.
17. Cleaning the house is not necessarily "women's work"; besides, most of the "dirt" and clutter is yours anyway.
18. Yes, we know most of the great chefs are men, why is it then that you never want to cook?
19. We go to the Ladies Room in groups to talk about you.
20. Yes, we know you can probably beat us arm wrestling; however, very few raises or promotions were gained by arm wrestling the boss.
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no subject
Date: 2002-03-09 07:11 am (UTC)Re:
Date: 2002-03-09 07:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-03-09 11:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-03-11 08:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-03-12 01:08 am (UTC)Now I don't know about you, but that, to me, isn't funny, and propogating something that simply furthers such mindless drivel is, despite the disclaimer - nay, more so *because of* the disclaimer - a stupendously ill-thought out thing to do. If that's not your "actual feelings" about men, why post it? The fact that you find the stereotypical view funny says one thing; the fact that you *know* it's rubbish and still find it funny is on another level entirely.
Evidently I'm not the only one who feels the same way.
Re:
Date: 2002-03-12 11:47 am (UTC)Being faced with that on a daily basis has to be incredibly frustrating, and being unable to respond in the way that's probably warranted because of the consequences you'd incur is beyond frustrating. I'm finding that I'm still wanting to justify the post with the argument of intent, but it's a fact that I'm a member of the privileged group in this case, and you have reason to feel the way you do. (Anyone else who is upset is free to approach me the way you did, but until then, I'm only concerned with you.)
I guess the question now is, what would you like to have happen? I'd be lying if I said I don't still find it amusing, and this is my space, but I don't enjoy hurting your feelings or making you angry, and being free to post what I want in my journal and being careful of your feelings aren't mutually exclusive. Would it be any better if I hid things like that behind an lj-cut and a warning, or is simply knowing that something like that has been posted going to have the same effect on you? I could simply filter you out of posts like that, if you prefer? Or do you have another suggestion?
no subject
Date: 2002-03-13 02:25 pm (UTC)Which I seem to remember was the bent of your original reply to my original post. I can't agree - the fact is that things like the "joke" you posted exist precisely because people do think that way, and what irked me most was the fact that having found it funny, you not only proceeded to post it but you simultaneously said with your disclaimer "I know this isn't true but I still find it funny", which only serves to say that contrary to what you're saying you clearly *do* subscribe to those standard stereotypes, or at least acknowledge them if not apply them. That's bobbins - it's acceptance of stereotypes that pigeonholes people in any case, be it based on race, colour, creed or gender.
And, for the record, I don't find the statement that you find jokes about black people or women funny any form of qualifier either, because they're *not* funny for exactly the same reasons. I think I actually only know two jokes about women, and the only reason they're funny is that the context I heard them in was a discussion about the ludicrosity of stereotypical jokes.
I think the only exception I can think of that I would subscribe to is jokes about nationality, and the only reason I have for that is that a joke about a country's stereotype is far from an attack on an individual, which is ultimately what, say, a gender-focused joke is. By which I mean, if you make a denigratory "humorous" comment about, say, gay people, then to anyone under that category it's an insult; whereas a comment about, e.g. the British stiff upper lip and imperialistic tendencies is not only not a directed comment but simultaneously applies to nobody and everybody. That's probably a very vague distinction - and some would accuse me trying to justify my own feelings towards various countries, probably - but I do think there's a difference. Still, everyone's a hypocrite, so I've been told, so I'm not entirely uncomfortable with being tarred with the same brush.
I guess the question now is, what would you like to have happen?
To get back to this point, which is the main one, really: what I'd like to happen has already happened, really. Hopefully the fact that I have expressed my distaste for the sort of thing you posted will at least make you aware that things of that nature are only funny to people in, as you put it, the "privileged group" (and in this case, the prevailing group. I am *really* sick to death of seeing adverts on TV and billboards whose only gimmick is to lambast the stupid husband and promote the clever wife; how is that any different from the clever crust-earning husband coming home to the devoted wife with the soft hands, "just how he likes them"?). Stop and think for a moment; you knew it was wrong when you posted it, and still did. If I were to post something similar with the roles reversed, I would be branded sexist and rightly so. Just remember that when you post to your journal - and it's not my place to say what you can and can't, ultimately - you are representing yourself and what you believe, and if that's what you choose to post, the person it reflects badly on is you, and you're only inviting comments in that regard.
Re:
Date: 2002-03-14 07:38 am (UTC)You're correct; I do acknowledge them. As you said that acknowledging them is why they exist, I can see why you'd react... the acknowledgment is as offensive, if not more offensive, to you, than the stereotype itself. That's something I hadn't considered, and I'm still not sure I understand it completely, but I see your point.
This is how I see it, however. Pretending they don't exist doesn't change the fact that they exist; in fact, I believe that it helps perpetuate them because the people who disagree never speak out, and the people who agree never hear anything which might make them reconsider. I also believe that the proof of what I believe, whether I state it or not, lies in how I treat people... and I don't apply stereotypes then. I don't feel that something has to be right to be amusing; wrong things are often amusing to me simply because they're wrong.
what I'd like to happen has already happened, really. Hopefully the fact that I have expressed my distaste for the sort of thing you posted will at least make you aware that things of that nature are only funny to people in, as you put it, the "privileged group" (and in this case, the prevailing group.
I disagree. I also find it amusing when it's directed "my group." I am female and negro, and I'm amused by the stereotypes regarding them, because I know that they're wrong. Someone acting upon those stereotypes is either to be set right or disregarded... and people like that also amuse me. If I know that a blanket statement aimed at my group is ridiculous, why should I be personally offended by it?
If I were to post something similar with the roles reversed, I would be branded sexist and rightly so. It is unfair, and unfortunate, that the stereotypes regarding women are such a sore point that even acknowledging them automatically brands a man as sexist. Unfortunate, because it gags the men who don't subscribe to the stereotypes, while the men who do subscribe to them keep voicing them, because they discount women's opinions in any case. Unfair, because many men have also come to believe that acknowledging the stereotype makes them sexist - and yet, the same isn't true for women. Let me ask you: if the subject was a book you disagreed with, would you believe that quoting it as amusing after saying you disagreed with the content still identifies you as agreeing with it? If not, then why do you believe that this content is different?
Just remember that when you post to your journal [...] you are representing yourself and what you believe That's true.
and if that's what you choose to post, the person it reflects badly on is you, From your point of view, yes, I can see that.
and you're only inviting comments in that regard. Dissent that's given genuinely doesn't upset me. I've learned from you, and I've enjoyed the exchange. I consider that well worth the post.
no subject
Date: 2002-03-09 12:11 pm (UTC)Of course, I am one of those unladylike ladies who belch loundly when I AM around them. =)